[citer:027076833c="Thorgal.BD"]Oui ! Mais ça n'empêche pas de fantasmer...

Idée encore moins chère : des membres du forum ? On fait le casting ? Vous voulez quel rôle ?[/citer:027076833c]

Well... Henry Cavill as Thorgal?

http://chroniclesofamisfit.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/henry-cavill.jpg

Kate Beckinsale (hmm... 8 years ago :)) as Kriss?

http://bettieboudoir.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/kate-beckinsale-van-helsing.jpg

Megan... looks really dangerous

http://status-cars.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/megan-fox10-1920x1200.jpeg

No doubt about Vigrid - Harry Lloyd

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Viserys_Targaryen?file=Viserys_Targaryen.jpg

:D :D :D

[citer:6663bfe5c3="hankanse"] les "russes" s'aventuraient le long des fleuves et l'un deux, Rurik fût nommé "souverain" de la région Kiev.[/citer:6663bfe5c3]

Rurik was a ruler of Novgorod (Novgorod Rus)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod
and creator of dynasty which ruled about 700 years.

[citer:316e241098="Thorgal.BD"][...]
Par contre je suis intéressé par ton point de vue sur l'influence (faible ou pas) des Vikings en Russie, n'hésite pas à développer si tu le souhaites.[/citer:316e241098]

Well, OK.
No doubt the only thing – Varjags from tribe Rus played big role in constructing of Russian state.

Who were they? That’s the main question.

Russian chronicle separated Rus from Scandinavians tribes.

There were western Slavic tribes on Baltic, which lived by “viking-life”.

Scandinavian sources, sagas and chronicles don't speak about Scandinavian-Rus, creators of neighbour state. This idea appeared only in XVI. I guess it was something politycal.

Russia hadn’t big influence of Scandinavian culture. We don’t see it in language, names, traditions, religion, art, architecture, ship building, military etc.

So think for yourself. If Rus were Scandinavian Vikings, their influence to Russian history was huge. If not…

What we know about surely Scandinavians Vikings in Russia?

Groups of mercenaries, who served to our princes, just like they served in the court of Byzantium imperors. Like I said before, even future Norwegian kings served here as leaders of groups mercenaries. Some of viking’s groups organized settlements TOGETHER with local tribes and then assimilated.

So of course groups Vikings were in Russia, but they didn’t make big influence. Look at the map, see these huge areas which was occupied by lots of local tribes, and you’ll agree. It’s impossible to compare with viking’s expansion into Europe (f.e. history of Normandia :))

Sorry if my post looks agressive :) Sure I didn't mean it.

[citer:938701450c="Thorgal.BD"]
Alors bien sûr, je peux me tromper, même si je me suis basé pour ma petite histoire sur des ouvrages très sérieux. [/citer:938701450c]

I know what you're talking about. These books create so called "norman's theory". But as you understand there are same serious books with alternative theory.

[citer:938701450c="Thorgal.BD"]
Il est possible aussi qu'il y ait une "vision occidentale" de l'histoire russe.[/citer:938701450c]

You're exactly right!!! But I can't agree that this is right vision :)))

[citer:938701450c="Thorgal.BD"]
Il semble que l'étymologie du mot "Rus" n'est pas certaine, et que plusieurs versions s'affrontent (comme pour beaucoup de mots).[/citer:938701450c]

You're exactly right again! But as I said before, only some Slavic tribes called themselves "Rus", so other version based on fake :)

[citer:938701450c="Thorgal.BD"]Je veux quand même préciser mes propos. Je n'ai pas du tout voulu dire que les Scandinaves ont colonisé la Russie ! [/citer:938701450c]

In your message you informed several items of "norman's theory". You didn't tell about "colonisation", but some "serious" authors write about that.
Vikings are colonized this huge territory, constracted a state "Russia", constructed a lots of towns (for examle Novgorod and Kiev) for their expansion to East etc.!!! Funny.

[citer:938701450c="Thorgal.BD"]
Simplement qu'on a retrouvé des traces montrant qu'ils ont parcouru ces fleuves de l'est et au-delà, qu'ils ont commercé avec des peuples très lointains (certainement, effectivement grâce à des intermédiaires locaux) et que certains d'entre eux ont parcouru de grandes distances pour nouer ces relations.

Je parlais du voyage de quelques aventuriers vikings, pas plus que ça. Et je n'ai pas développé le côté "mercenaire" car ce n'était pas le propos.

Si d'autres veulent réagir, je veux bien, pour savoir si mon texte porte à confusion sur ces points ? :oops:[/citer:938701450c]

No problem about that! But you started from "Rus-Varjags, who were Sweden". This is the "corner stone" of "western vision" and it's fake. Swede of Thorgal's age didn't know that they were "Rus" :)

[citer:8ded257361="Thorgal.BD"]:

Si vous le souhaitez, vous pouvez réagir à cette analyse dans le sujet dédié à l'album, ICI.

[...]
Réparé.[/citer:8ded257361]

Hello! Can I tell something HERE? About this part of your text: "Marchands de l'extrême"

“Ceux qu'on appelait Rus ou Varègues, certainement en majorité d'origine suédoise,”

Did ever Sweden or any other Scandinavians call themselves “Rus”?

Did any Scandinavian or European sources write about Sweden konung who created a state and dynasty which ruled Russia about 700 years?

Why these “Rus ou Varègues” swore by Slavic gods?

Why Slavic culture, language, religion had NO influence of Scandinavians?

Because Rus were NOT Scandinavians, but one of western Slavic tribes.

Theory, that Varjag (russuan name of Vikings)-Rus are Sweden was based on Russian Chronicle “Chronique des temps passes”. It said, that some Slavic unions of tribe asked Varjag-Rus to rule. (“Our land is rich but there is no ruler”)
Varjags = Vikngs, Vikings = Scandinavians, Rus = Scandinavians???

But this chronicle said next: “Those Varjags were called Rus, as other Varjags were called Sweden, another – Normans, Angles and Gotlands ”. Varjags (Vikings) are not nation, but way of life. So chronicle exactly separated Rus from Scandinavians and other nations. Do you know that in those period a lots of Slavic tribes lived in Europe, for example they fought and made a unions with French kings? So why eastern Slavic tribes needed to call Scandinavian leaders???

“ont laissé des traces de leur passage dans une bonne partie de l'actuelle Russie, et au Moyen-Orient.”

Some burial places are not a reason to speak of “viking’s expansion” or big influence on Russian state.

“Certains ont même fondé ou développé des villes tout au long des lignes marchandes, s'y installant parfois définitivement. ”

Hmm… In those period Vikings had 2-3 towns like Hedebu and Birka (And they had no own states). But they called Russia “Gardariki” – “country of towns”. Did they build all these towns? And create state “Russia”??? This is funny.

“Remontant les fleuves d'Europe de l'est, comme la Vistule, le Dniepr ou la Volga, ils atteignaient Bagdad, capitale du califat abasside (aujourd'hui en Irak), ou Constantinople, capitale de l'empire byzantin (Istanbul en Turquie de nos jours). Dans ces grandes cités médiévales, ils pouvaient se procurer des produits d'origines très lointaines comme de la soie chinoise ou des épices venues d'Inde.”

Do you really believe that territory of modern Russia was empty in those period and thousands of Vikings travelled there and back, trade and founded towns? Very funny. How about some big and mighty states like Novgorod Rus, Kiev Rus, Bulgarian kingdom, Khazar kaganat? A lots of tribe unions? Look at the map and you’ll understand, that all Scandinavia had not enough people to make expansion or some influence on this huge territory.

“Les marchands vikings échangeaient des fourrures, des objets manufacturés, de l'ambre, des métaux...”

It was easy to get all these (and lots of more) products in the middle of Eurasia. Arabian or Bulgarian merchant had no reason to wait for Viking. And Viking had no reason to travel about half-year with their furs, that’s funny.
Like I said before this huge territory wasn’t empty, some states, a lots of tribes.

By the way that’s why Vikings didn’t try to terrorize Russia (like all Europe), but prefer TO SERVE our princes. Like future Norwegian kings Olaf Tryggvason (served to prince Vladimir) and Harald Hardrada (served to prince Yaroslav the Wise).

[citer:b2d5b1b5bc="Louve Thorgalsdottir"]:D Grillée en beauté :x
Hello Roman,
yes these 3 messages were quite hard to find, but it was worth it Coeur
Спасибо за ваш обмен работать с нами Sourire [/citer:b2d5b1b5bc]

You're welcome :)

[citer:da4d59e995="Louve Thorgalsdottir"]Voilà peut-être la réponse à ta question :x :shock:
[/citer:da4d59e995]

Bravo! To find 3 messages from hundreds and to make right decision - this is wonderful!